RE: Let's refuel America
It was a sales gimmick that sure hooked a lot of non-thinking consumers. Chrysler had sold them a vehicle and that's all Chrysler cared about. The general public is so darn gullable. Too late now!!!
RE: A view from within GM
Rob30044,
Most of the other (non UAW) hourly employees in the USA have to pay all their own or a large portion of their own healthcare insurance premiums out of their much lower hourly compensations. UAW member employees are a very small part of this countries total fulltime employee count. One of the reasons there are so many uninsured or they carry the bare bones huge co-pay policies. They can't afford it and it's not paid for them as it would bankrupt their small employer and then they wouldn't even have a job and no income at all. That's the real world! Why are healthcare costs and insurance premiums so expensive? One of the big reasons is because in this country, you can't be denied care in public hospitals etc even if you are uninsured, have no intention of paying the bill, here illegally, a terrorist, on death row, or whatever. That leaves the insured/employer insurance providers along with the rest of the citizens to pay the non-payer or uninsured's health care bills. Nationally, almost 31% of the health care bills/costs go uncollected now so we all get the opportunity to pay more. The money has to come from somewhere! That sure makes insurance very expensive for the Big 3 corporations, other employers, and self payers.
Therefore, it's not a misleading statement as added into the employee "total compensation". The Big 3 give very good healthcare insurance policies to all their employees at an extremely cheap price to the worker. It's a benefit the Big 3 employee receives and guess who pays for it? Your employer! Why then shouldn't it be included in the hourly compensation received by the employee?
Bingo! You said it yourself! The foreign owned operations with a "legacy cost" of $100 per vehicle doesn't have the "legacy costs" of $1500 per vehicle the Big 3 does. Let me state it again! Somebody has to pay the Big 3's unfunded retiree "legacy costs" of the union's "pie in the sky" boondoggle sold to it's members. What makes you think the rest of the USA work force who makes just a fraction of the UAW wages would even consider picking up that tab that will just keep comming year after year after year? That's why economists are saying "let them file bankruptcy, void the union contracts and debt, and reorganize so they can emerge and compete with their competition on an level field".
Yes, the USA spends more on health care than other countries and here's an example to think about. Our Son owned a manufacturing company in England and I know what it cost his company to provide for his employees, I think you are VERY misled. Their health care sucked compared to ours here in the USA! You get care/surgery here when you ask for it, not when your number comes up as in most other countries nationalized systems! Canada is having these issues also and many Canadians opt to come to this country and pay for the care they need. The U.S. border states know! I live in Michigan and our Son now lives in the Detroit area right on the Canadian border and it no secret to him as he sees it every day and it's in the news too. The best health care is in this country, that's why they come!
tahiti16,
I spent 4 1/2 years working on the I/P cross car beam assembly for the GM Colorado truck alone from concet design to actual production worthy production approval. Took it from a 53 component asm to a 37 component asm. I'm sure this thread's OP (NickG) knows just what I'm talking about. It's a tube in a tube bent beam to shape with brackets and assemblies welded to it for I/P attachment, emergency brake asm attachment and brake release brackets, brake/clutch pedal attachment asm, steering column attachments and sub asm, radio and console attachment housing and arms, airbag attachment housing and support, glovebox support asm and attachments, etc to name a few. Very complex and they weren't going to be assembling any vehicles with out it complete and certified and at the assembly line in Shreveport, LA. Tooling alone was 13 months. I just told you this was a 4 1/2 year project alone so is 3-5 years for a new vehicle platform wrong or too long? Worked 3 1/2 years on the Ford focus suspension system. That's just 2 of the projects. I think I know how long it takes as I've done it so many times.
RE: A view from within GM
Rob30044,
The UAW it's self has agreed to the $73 per hour that's reported by the Big 3 as being the hourly "total compensation" number and it has been reported as such in several newspapers/periodicals and the live TV filmed the interviews with UAW reps present. The numbers have also been documented.
Toyota, Honda, and Nissan agreed with the reported $48 per hour "total compensation" number as they themselves had furnished the documented info. Their hourly workforce is not unionized.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce again this past weekend stated that the average "total compensation" per hour worked in the USA for fulltime workers is $28.43 per hour. It was said by a C of C rep again on Neil Cavouto's show this afternoon.
All compensation hourly figures are with fringes/benefits included for hours worked. That's why it was specified as "total compensation". The Big 3, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan hourly numbers were rounded off the the nearest dollar. The Chamber of Commerce number was actual and not rounded off.
YOU may not like the numbers but they are documented as accurate and show the vast differences. Should bankruptcies be filed, a judge or the courts have full power to void ALL labor contracts etc and require them to be rewritten and submitted to the judge/referee or the courts. You can bet they will look very different than now for the court/legal system to give them approval. Might be wise to keep in mind Toyota's, Honda's, and Nissan's compensations are a proven model for a successful related automotive operation and may very well be the guide lines required for reorganization approval by the courts. You will certainly see the "legacy costs" either be disolved or a mere miniature shadow of the present day figures.
RE: A view from within GM
Have you guys ever stopped to think that GM nor any of the Big 3 would ever have a chance of being competitive or even close in the inexpensive small car market with the $15,000 price tag while having the sweet $1500 legacy cost per vehicle plopped on the top of the manufacturing cost? Which must and then is passed on to the buying public by the dealer. Unfortunately, there's some more bad news too! The Big 3, by paying $71 or $73 per hour to their average UAW employee while their competition is only paying $47 or $48 per hour to their average hourly plant employee, adds another 34% to the cost of assembling each small vehicle produced or another several hundred dollars depending on the plant, model, and options etc included which is also an addition to the sales price at the dealer. Round it off at $2000 added to each small $15,000 vehicle coming off the assembly line and, holy banana peels Batman, we're not competitive! Just try adding this $2000 figure to each small perhaps $15,000 vehicle and notice what or which vehicle the public will buy. The public generally is cheap, cheap, cheap and shops banters and haggles over a lousy $100 or $200 difference and doesn't give 2 hoots as to what it costs to bring a vehicle to a showroom floor. Not even if it's their wonderful neighbors on each side of their home who are working at the assembly plant. Are they wise? Far from it! They should have given some very serious thought as to what that lousy $100 to $200 etc will actually be costing them in their actual future tax dollars for welfare, unemployment, national capital investment, others sharing in the tax paying, and our economy etc. Unemployed workers do not pay income taxes or FICA/employment tax and so little sales taxes etc because they don't have much money to spend so YOU get to pay their share too! No problem!!! Like being in the thousands of dollars per taxpayer whether you purchased a vehicle or not! How dumb can one be?
Why aren't we, the taxed public, screaming loudly and demanding this Big 3 etc excessive nonsense comes to an immediate end and force the changes necessary to allow our industries/manufacturer's to be competitive??? After all, it's really your money that's being spent and much more that will be spent either way, with or without, even purchasing any vehicle. Easy come, easy go I guess. HELLO!!!! anyone awake out there?????
RE: Who will survive?
Lance has expanded into the pull behind RV trailer market. One model is the 1880. Lance made 5'ers years ago too as one is for sale on the net now. I've heard they were going to go into the light weight 5'er market smaller sized 5'ers also. A link is:
http://www.lancetrailer.com/
RE: A view from within GM
Also, to right the ship and really solve the problems. The playing field MUST be made level between trading countries with no excuses period! We, in our country, both the USA and Canada, have purchased the foreign made vehicles and their products and thereby sent our coins and dollars out of our countries. So we must now live a lot more like the world WE have financed and built so willingly. Go look in the mirror and you will probably see one of those people who helped change our world to what it is now! Hit that sucker right in the chops and see if he wakes up to smell the dead roses!
RE: A view from within GM
5er4ever,
Yes, you said it very well that it's management who has ALLOWED the union's pressures to put a strangle death hold on the automotive businesses etc and that's must change immediately! Also, a huge YES to the well known fact that in only a FEW minutes, nearly any walking warm blooded person from off the street could be trained do the required assembly line work. Not true of the skilled trades though! Isn't it ridiculous how thru the vast union pressures over so many years that the shear unskilled member numbers have kept the skilled and unskilled workers so close in hourly compensations. Unbelievable! Only in America! Or Canada!
I'm not in favor of any bailout that does not INCLUDE a total restructuring of exising contracts and the revising of managment. Without correcting the ills, a bailout will only move the date down the road a little but will insure the suppliers to automotive will be paid for the products they've already shipped that have been assembled on vehicles and/or sold. That's a must as they did their job and deserve to be paid, no excuses. With out the suppliers being paid the money due them, the suppliers, who actually supply about 4 times as many components as the in house Big 3 plants/workers do. Suppliers would go down the tubes real fast or instantly and ALL automotive production in the USA and Canada would totally cease including the foreign owned implants as their parts come from the very same suppliers! Any that could possibly survive would NOT be stupid enough to send more product to a corporation who had welched and weaseled out of paying for what they had all ready shipped to them. How many times would you need to put your hand on a red hot burner before you know enough not to do it??? You might remember that automotive suppliers employ 3+ times as many as the Big 3 do directly. What the heck would a bailout accompolish other than stealing the taxpayers money and then having to come back for more?
A chapter 11 filing would leave a judge and the courts to decide the Big 3's fate. That take a very long time and the bills just keep on coming in. It's not the answer either as with no money to pay bills with, the workforce would have to be decimated and no money to pay the suppliers so they would close up too and add their workers to the unemployment roles. Could easily reach over 2 million job gone!
Chapter 7 would immediately or within 2 weeks stop any and ALL automotive production in the USA and Canada and a loss of 3+ million and climbing with rippling effects that may very well doom our entire nations's economy as it's a mushrooming scenario that just keeps on expanding. Perhaps, most people forget that we have a system in place that's called "just in time" brainstorm production of component parts. Inventories of nearly ALL parts are mostly non-existant! No parts, no build or assemble! GO HOME because the doors are CLOSED!!!
How could I be in favor of either a bailout or bankruptcy??? Solve the real problems immediately!!!
As for vehicle size!
I can attest to the fact that the Japanese, Asian, domestic, etc and vitually all vehicles in Europe including the OTR trucks are much narrower, smaller, and lighter than those sold here. Our Son owned an automotive component manufacturing and development company in the Midlands of England for a few years. He has sold it and moved back here to Michigan. Yes, we've been there as you's imagine and in/driven so many of the vehicles either in his plant or on the streets and went to many dealerships as he and I looked at various vehicles and measured lots and lots of things. What a difference! They have to as their roads and streets are so narrow across the pond and parking lots couldn't handle our mid sized cars and opening the door and getting out with our compacts would even be a challenge. A much smaller vehicle with a peanut sized engine is the norm and NO they don't get double the MPG's or even close. They have such small distances to drive in the tiny countries and fuel is not very far from $10. a gallon measure so they seldom joy ride like we do and usually drive with a passenger load not like one person per car as we see here. I wittnessed it up close and personally so many times!
RE: A view from within GM
Drbolasky,
The challenge you speak of is to get the same product out the manufacturer's door at the same cost or lower cost per hour attributed to the product's building and assembly thereof as the profitable competition does operating in the same country using our walking and talking humans. Materials used in product builds are basically the same cost to all manufacturers. If one group of workers can do it then what's the excuse for the other group not doing it??? Read what our domestic manufacturers have as a huge albatross that's been grown and still growing ("legacy costs") and chained to their necks over the last 70 or so years. It's a real eye opener. It doesn't matter what the product is or whether it's a compact car or a pickup truck. Same principles apply. Could be soap, paper, widgets, too or you name it. The domestic auto makers have an average hourly production cost of approx $73 while the foreign owned operations right here in the USA have an hourly cost of just $48 per hour with the same hourly wages. Huge difference!!!! You surely must know WHY there's such a difference as how many times does it have to be said or pointed out in the news, TV, or publications. Fringe benetfits, contracts, productivity per employee, to mention a few. The domestic's built the vehicles the public was buying in droves until the oil price went crazy. Now the public wants the domestic's to just reach over and turn the large vehicle fawcett off and turn the little people mover fawcett on. Doesn't work that way as it take 3-5 years min. You might note that GM alone already makes more vehicle models the get over 30 MPG than anyone else. People are so fickle!
As for quality and reliability you are just dead wrong as to today's vehicles. Domestics offer vehicles that are used for much heavier work and hauling than the "people movers" the foreign owned operations offer. How many 35ft 5'ers or trailers etc do you see on non-domestic trucks plying our highways? How many delivery/work trucks/vehicles do you see in your area? You can't compare the peanuts to grapefruit as they are so different. Foreign countries use trucks with a gross of about 40,000 lbs compared to our 80,000 lbs. We travel across the pond and know! Do you want to see 2 times as many trucks plugging our roads to deliver the same quantity of products? Simply put, driving 2 vehicles is never cheaper than doing it in one vehicle trip. 2 drivers, 2 engines, many more tires replaced, etc. This applies to comsumer vehicles also when brute strength, size, or ability is needed or desired. Some vehicle owners only want or need a small people mover and some need more ability. This is an RV forum, if you will notice, and people movers are not really the choice for RV'ers other than a toad.
Something to think about is that the approx 500,000 direct domestic employees are dwarfed by the 3 times as many supplier employees. Those 2 million workers plus and added close to a million sales etc workers are what keeps the businesses in your area or the country going as they are. Without them and their paychecks, you'd see a huge decrease in local retail businesses, restaurants, and services which means many many more jobs lost and further decreases. It won't stop! Now add in the huge increases in taxes each working person will have to pay because for instance, the same number of students/children will be going to the schools and the unemployment costs/assistance and other effects will skyrocket. If you have no job or income,you'll not be making your mortgage payments or paying income taxes or your property etc taxes. Very dismal! You I and all the other citizens will share in paying for the bailout costs up front or be paying the after effects for so many more years to come. Let's get behind making the proper corrections as they MUST be done ASAP! Bleeding hearts won't get the job done at all and will only make it worse!!!
A note about investors: Do you really think any sane person with money to invest wouldn't be looking for a decent $$$ gain? ROI (Return On Investment)Lets get real! It's investment capital that is behind nearly all corporations or businesses whether it be the owners or publicly traded stocks. Best keep it here in our country or you'll decimate what's left of our economy!
typo corrections....
RE: A view from within GM
macira,
Something to consider also is the ramifications of a bailout vs bankruptcy.
A bailout really won't solve a darn thing, only delay reality for a time period. Will it cut the number of corporate employees? Why would it? Got lots of money now. Will it correct the root problems? not a chance. Could it be made to correct the real ills and put corporations on the right path? you betcha! Do we have the guts to make it happen? How bad do we want it. It's a very tough road and will take raw determination and grunt all the way thru to the end. Some will fight it all the way as you would expect.
Now for bankruptcy. What will it really do? Cancel all contracts including the UAW's and virtually throw all employees out on the street. Cancel the corporation's debts owed to their suppliers even thought the supplier did his job properly and supplied tangible product items according to the purchase order agreement. This will mean the suppliers will be forced out of business and his employees out on the street. Now, who's going to give all these people enought money to buy food and shelter with? YOU!!! Big brother (Uncle Sam)will give the bailout money anyway to the laid off workers for doing no work at all! Now that's gone too! BUT That's far from the end of it. Most of the stores around your town will suffer or close completely because of not enough customers with $$$ to spend. There goes a lot more jobs and the services sector wil suffer greatly so more jobs lost. Unemployment will go from the present 6'5% to a min of 16.5% and that's not going in the right direction! Quite a death spiral we have going now and how do you stop it? You get the drift.
Take your choice as to which one is the better scenario and one YOU can live with. So many things have to drastically change and either we as a country force it or the world economy will do it for us and we won't have our choice how it's done or what. Either way, it's going to change!
For me! I don't like either one as the answer because it isn't that simple but a choice will have to be made and most of real thinking reasonable people know what it has to be....
RE: A view from within GM
macira,
The corporations will hardly have a chance of doing much better until the "legacy cost burden" is lifted or truely solved AND their product building cost of the vehicles going out the manufacturers door are able to match the same cost as their competition's. Yes, the management side has to make the necessary changes also but that's a very small portion of the total problem now as they have already seen huge cuts and changes and are constantly being cut some more. Educated talent doesn't work for $8 per hour and they aren't sitting on every street corner waiting for a job to come their way. I can tell you for a fact that the OP of this thread does not make anywhere near the same dollars per hour he works as the average UAW minimally educated worker does at the very same corporation. Something's so very wrong with that! Is it a way of saying to the children growing up, don't go to college and get an education because you'll work many more hours each week and have less yearly compensation figures on your yearly W2 form to show for it? Remember that management generally does not have a contract of any kind to "protect" them from the corporate staff etc so they have been now decimated nearly to the bone. Who's going to develop these new instantly needed domestic corporation vehicles now? A new product design, engineering, prototyping, testing, certification, meeting government requirements, tooling, etc does NOT start at the production build line! It takes 3-5 years before actual production can begin on any vehicle at a minumum.
Let me turn the tables on your question for a minute. How can a foreign corporation come into this country, build a completely new operation from the ground up, pay their employees the same wages as the domestics, and make a very good profit year after year? Kind of tells you the real answer doesn't it?
Isn't that what you really want? Our domestics to win also? Make a profit while paying the same wages? Making the vehicle you want to buy?
correction, Sorry, spelled macira wrong on both of my posts
RE: A view from within GM
Yes Moderator, I know what the OP has stated all to well and it was mostly very positive and so very true. I have personally delt with both sides of the corporations for so darn many years and there's two distinct sides to views of both. Other posters have said what they observed with their own eyes when visiting an assembly line and they are saying it like it is. Go see for yourself! Is there something wrong with posting the actual truth as to both the sides? I made no attempt to bash anyone personally as that was not my desire but I did say it like it really is and I know it so well. I've been there and done that over and over and over again. The OP is certainly a reflection of my experiences also and he has a wonderful attitude about it as I have seen at GM also. I said GM because that's where the OP works. There are reasons our corporations are in the shape they are in and burying your head in the sand is of no help or answer nor will it do anything to inform the readers/public to demand a change to help the situation improve. I'm confused as to why some posters have to tip toe thru subjects and others can call people names, or flame their forum name, or post demeaning phrases and it's perfectly OK. What gives?
I've only written 2,640 posts on this forum alone so I'm no virgin!
RE: A view from within GM
NickG,
Although I do not know you personally sir, thank you for saying it like it really is and coming from a person who's presently working on the inside daily. I can attest to what you have said in your post. You are the example of the vast majority of the personnel I have always seen. I/my company has worked with all the Big 3 (GM, Ford, and Chrysler) for several decades as an outside support source for component design or assist, engineering, prototyping, certification, and technical assistance on awarded supplier projects tool building and production certification. Most often, it was by contract or invitation by either direct or tier 1 supplier. I know for a fact how dedicated and pride driven nearly all the design and engineering employees that I have worked with are. Few have ever looked at a clock or watch as said it's 5 o'clock and time to go home or my day is done, come back tomorrow! The attitude was almost always, we'll stay as long as it takes to complete what's needed to be accompolished on that day even though they were only being paid for 8 hours. I remember so many meetings going on past 8 or 9 pm. There is no such thing as "paid overtime". They are salaried! The project always came first! I agree it hasn't been any fun for the last 4-5 years as I'm still in contact with some of the Big 3 engineering etc directors although I had personally retired the end of 2005.
The robust attitude you spoke of is in contrast (180 degrees) in the opposite direction with the hourly union workers on the assembly line floor. We had to work with them quite often at various plant assembly lines to instruct, find out what problems they were having, or even audit etc suspect components shipped from a supplier. There was usually always a minimum group of 3 floor/UAW employees involved each time as they said it was "required". Only one floor member would have been needed max in nearly all cases. I/we would stand around for sometimes hours until all 3 finally took their good old time time in getting there so the process could begin. Beyond reason to say the very least. There was NO sense of urgency period and if the buzzzer were to sound for breaks, lunch, or end of shift, you better be out of their way NOW or else. If another shift were to start up 20-30 minutes later and they managed to get the new required 3 assembled together, we'd have to start all over again. The minimum of 3 required were usually: the involved assembly line worker, his area/group leader or foreman, and a union steward which had to be in attendance every time. Sometimes it would be far more than just 3 in attendance. Again, what a waste!!! It was like "one to hold the light bulb and three to turn the ladder". Real efficiency isn't it? UAW etc has a real strangle hold on having real productivity and the Big 3's foreign competition wouldn't put up with it for a minute. NickG, you have probably seen this nonsense very often yourself and so many times.
Anyone who has toured or been at an automotive assembly line knows the member's posts stating what it's like is so true. But then, what can you expect from a UAW etc worker only being compensated $70+ per hour for the hours they are actually at their job? Do they need a raise????
RE: Nissan future heavy duty pickups
I also offer the "as reported facts on TV" again this morning that the foreign owned non-union automotive manufacturing operations that dot our Southern U.S. are doing very well and are real profitable while paying approximately the same levels of hourly wages but not have the union's business killing albatross benefit packages and insane union mandated work rules inacted. Did you catch the word "non-union" the news reported? These foreign owned operations do not have mass defections of their work force but rather lines of perspective hopeful workers waiting to get be hired in. What's so hard to understand for these UAW etc "diehard promoters" and misled union blind people? The domestic Big 3 could easily share in this success if the UAW etc would only wise up! The Big 3 have only been making what has been selling for many years now until the oil crunch quickly changed vehicle desires and now some SUV production lines are working overtime as we know and has been reported. You don't turn vheicle production lines or the products produced on and off with a simple switch!
RE: Nissan future heavy duty pickups
hannibal, could you be referring to the terrible engineering done on those unreliable vehicles you buy and drive and then buy some more of that you so many of your kind constantly brag about in the many posts??? How transparent and shallow of you. Thought you were smarter and better than that but now the whole forum knows the truth!
Maybe travelnuts and many other realistic people have taken measures to see their actual retirement funds are real and protected unlike those who have a simple piece of happy paper stating what their projected retirement monthly benefit is expected to be, well maybe? Ever hear of a little term called bankruptcy or business failures? Tends to wipe out those supposed on paper happy funds or at best decrease them to merely pennies on the dollar. Read the fine print and wise up! You might want to look around at the world as to what's happening. A bird in your hand is so much more real than simply seeing a picture on paper of bird perched on a branch! Wait, maybe it's just a fake stuffed bird on that limb? It's so far off I can't really tell! Sounds much like a theoretical retirement account paper promise doesn't it? We'll see who's the one still laughing on down the road, won't we?
Since 10% of the workforce is automotive related it means 90% is not auto related or for you, that's 1 out of 10 is auto related. You might want to do some research as to what percentage of this country's workforce is unionized and make a careful note of the extremely high percentage of those unionized workplaces that have moved offshore etc, closed, filed bankruptcy, are about to file, or are in deep financial problems. The same Big 3 make excellent profits in their offshore operations and that should tell you very clearly as to what our unions have and are doing to the Big 3 here in the USA and Canada. Open your eyes! Some people never learn but alas, the world economy ultimate teacher will be showing you the hard way with perhaps personal results you can't even argue with. Welcome to the new and future world about you!
Nissan knows what's in the future for having their trucks built for them and they are preparing their own future through their own engineering development and with their planned truck builder's pending "poof" are looking to jump in and get their share of the HD market. Pretty darn smart and I must say so myself! Looks like the shoes on the other foot now!
RE: Nissan future heavy duty pickups
A little info for the 2 knowledge lacking Wannabe's:
Travelnutz has never been a UAW member nor affiliated in any way with the UAW or any such union or would he have allowed himself to be. Nor has Travelnutz been employed by ANY automotive manufacturer. Travelnutz doesn't need or require some underhanded organization to supposedly represent him as he's reprenseted himself very well and has done quite alright for himself and his family without a thug organization leading him by the nose with one hand while their other hand is in his back pocket gripped tightly around his wallet and dancing to the sound of that giant sucking sound while it's being dictated to him as to the hours he can work and when, how much work can be allowed to be accompolished per hour, the wages/compensation he will receive, or how much his monthly retirement check will be.
Maybe to Travelnutz, the $2800/mo retirement that was posted by Hannibal is more like pocket change or an insult to him because he'd taken control of his own future and livelyhood rather being told what to do, what he's going to have, and how high to pile that brown stuff. It's clear that some YoYo's wouldn't have an inkling of being in self control of their lives, however, it appears they have found a keyboard and just peck away blindly!
Travelnutz is well aware of what the UAW and most unions have done to ruin the once proud, large employment, profitable corporations of the USA and Canada that used to be the envy of the world but are now ruined largely by the the UAW and other over reaching union thugs fleecing of the manufacturing spectrum and forcing their relocation offshore etc. Makes you beam with pride, doesn't it? UAW's etc excessive stealing of the general public's hard earned product purchasing dollars thru their insane ratified contracts has finally been recognized by the majority of the workers in our country who are not unionized and they've have had enough of it. Thus, the union existing contracts are on their way out or at very minimum going to be brought back in line with the real world's economy. Union thugs talk big but they do not own or run anything but their mouths and the puppets under their control. Watch closely for what's about to happen and you might learn something! Regardless, the rest of the world WILL make sure it happens anyway!
Might note! A bankrupt corporation or corporations do not employ workers nor do they give out paychecks. They do allow their former workers to walk the streets, look for another job, or sit on their backends and drink water cause they don't have any money to buy beer! Funny how that wonderful ratified union contract merely vanishes into thin air when the corporation closes. Who'd a thunk it?
RE: Nissan future heavy duty pickups
silversand,
"Porple"? Well it may be something beyond your comprehension ability...
Sure I can put it in a one or a couple sentences but that doesn't mean it would help you understand since you're not able to comprehend what my post was about in the first place. Mindboggling!!!
See if you can understand it as put in this one long sentence:
Organized automotive labor etc slopping themselves at the feeding troughs for 70 plus years which have been continously kept filled by the corporations, consumers, lesser compensated, and public's dole has long ago crested it's pinnicle and is now in a very rapid uncontrolled tailspin.
RE: GM SUV plant working overtime.
This is better posted in this thread
I been wondering why the posters and the general public don't seem to understand what "legacy costs" are that are killing the domestic vehicle manufacturers etc? It's been explained many times on news reports etc and it seems to go right over peoples heads.
"Legacy costs", for the most part, are the chickens that have come home to roost. However, there's no hen house for them to roost in! Could also be called "pie in the sky" hollow "promises" inked on paper years ago, to gain a contractural agreement, but never funded, nor controlled, whie having an open ended structure like a water glass with it's bottom removed. The money isn't there, never was, nor would or could it ever be. Unions pressured all 3 domestic manufacturers existence with contract strikes and/or walkouts etc to have the "sounds good" promissory language put into the contract demands that would inspire and please their membership along with the well known unsustainable constant wage and benefit increases. Foolishly, it was accepted over and over as the membership bought it without even looking at where it was leading them. "Feels good now" very often has future unpleasant after effects to face.
Do you know what a pyramid scheme is? Ponzi scheme? This is and was a real granddaddy sized one. GM, for example, is a corporation with approx 266,000 employees or around 1/2 the total number of employees in the Big 3 but carries the financial burden of these "legacy costs" for a corporation having around 800,000 employees. DUH!!! GM's financial problems are in the "front and center" news because they are by far the largest but Ford and Chrysler have the same identical problems just at a lower dollar figure due to their smaller employee numbers. Chrysler, the smallest has less than 66,000 employees as this gives some perspective as to the relevance of importance of the issues.
There is no way for any of the Big 3 to continue presently under these "legacy costs" burdens and still be profitable. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc operations here and abroad have virtually non of these "legacy costs" albatrosses around their necks and are reaping to profits AT the Big 3 and general public's expense. The $100 per vehicle Toyota pays towards legacy costs is so tiny compared to the $1500 per vehicle GM or the other 2 of the Big3 pay towards legacy costs. We, the taxpayers of this country basically have but 2 choices as follows:
1.--- Bail all 3 domestics out but with an immediate effective change to ALL existing contract language covering present and retired union employees with a reduction of 30% across the board. Yes, 30%!!! No expections!!! This includes any and all present and retired management and the CEO's too. Also, an immediate total ban on any bonuses and/or "Golden Parachutes" etc whether there are agreemnets or not. No one if forcing any of these said employees or management to stay at their jobs or positions as they can seek other employment if they don't like it!
2.--- Let GM file chapter 11, nullify any and all existing contractual agreements and let the court or appointed etc commission determine the "percent on the dollar" liability that will be re-established in the accepted reorganization plan which is using the same level playing field as it's offshore/world competition. GM, almost instantly would be joined by Ford and Chrysler as they are in the same boat even though at their lower total dollar numbers. Then all the jobs and positions would be gone. Very sobering to say the least! Much worse than a 30% reduction in compensation packages!!!
There's not a lot of choices to be had and GM is not alone, merely the largest, so, of course, it gets more press and always has during our lifetimes.
Doing nothing almost assures 3 million auto related workers ARE going to be out of a job very soon. 1 out of every 10 jobs in the country are directly affected by the auto industry. Beyond that staggering number. The 10% (1 out of 10) which would alone raise our present 6.5% unemployment figure soon to around 16.5% and that's the reality. Think what it will do to your local retail outlets such as grocery stores, clothes/apparel stores, restaurants, electronic/appliance stores, home improvment/maintenance businesses, service sector, entertainment, local sales tax etc collection, schools and colleges, etc. No jobs meanns very little or no money for these porple to spend. Therefore, it will also adversely affect these retail operations and their present employees and so many would close totally. It will create a downward spiral that is very difficult to reverse.
Think about it!!!
RE: Nissan future heavy duty pickups
I been wondering why the posters and the general public don't seem to understand what "legacy costs" are that are killing the domestic vehicle manufacturers etc? It's been explained many times on news reports etc and it seems to go right over peoples heads.
"Legacy costs", for the most part, are the chickens that have come home to roost. However, there's no hen house for them to roost in! Could also be called "pie in the sky" hollow "promises" inked on paper years ago, to gain a contractural agreement, but never funded, nor controlled, whie having an open ended structure like a water glass with it's bottom removed. The money isn't there, never was, nor would or could it ever be. Unions pressured all 3 domestic manufacturers existence with contract strikes and/or walkouts etc to have the "sounds good" promissory language put into the contract demands that would inspire and please their membership along with the well known unsustainable constant wage and benefit increases. Foolishly, it was accepted over and over as the membership bought it without even looking at where it was leading them. "Feels good now" very often has future unpleasant after effects to face.
Do you know what a pyramid scheme is? Ponzi scheme? This is and was a real granddaddy sized one. GM, for example, is a corporation with approx 266,000 employees or around 1/2 the total number of employees in the Big 3 but carries the financial burden of these "legacy costs" for a corporation having around 800,000 employees. DUH!!! GM's financial problems are in the "front and center" news because they are by far the largest but Ford and Chrysler have the same identical problems just at a lower dollar figure due to their smaller employee numbers. Chrysler, the smallest has less than 66,000 employees as this gives some perspective as to the relevance of importance of the issues.
There is no way for any of the Big 3 to continue presently under these "legacy costs" burdens and still be profitable. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc operations here and abroad have virtually non of these "legacy costs" albatrosses around their necks and are reaping to profits AT the Big 3 and general public's expense. We, the taxpayers of this country basically have but 2 choices as follows:
1.--- Bail all 3 domestics out but with an immediate effective change to ALL existing contract language covering present and retired union employees with a reduction of 30% across the board. Yes, 30%!!! No expections!!! This includes any and all present and retired management and the CEO's too. Also, an immediate total ban on any bonuses and/or "Golden Parachutes" etc whether there are agreemnets or not. No one if forcing any of these said employees or management to stay at their jobs or positions as they can seek other employment if they don't like it!
2.--- Let GM file chapter 11, nullify any and all existing contractual agreements and let the court or appointed etc commission determine the "percent on the dollar" liability that will be re-established in the accepted reorganization plan which is using the same level playing field as it's offshore/world competition. GM, almost instantly would be joined by Ford and Chrysler as they are in the same boat even though at their lower total dollar numbers. Then all the jobs and positions would be gone. Very sobering to say the least! Much worse than a 30% reduction in compensation packages!!!
There's not a lot of choices to be had and GM is not alone, merely the largest, so, of course, it gets more press and always has during our lifetimes.
Doing nothing almost assures 3 million auto related workers ARE going to be out of a job very soon. 1 out of every 10 jobs in the country are directly affected by the auto industry. Beyond that staggering number. The 10% (1 out of 10) which would alone raise our present 6.5% unemployment figure soon to around 16.5% and that's the reality. Think what it will do to your local retail outlets such as grocery stores, clothes/apparel stores, restaurants, electronic/appliance stores, home improvment/maintenance businesses, service sector, entertainment, local sales tax etc collection, schools and colleges, etc. Not having a job means very little or no money for these people to spend which obvious. Therefore, it will also adversely affect these retail operations and their present employees and so many would close totally. It will create a downward spiral that is very difficult to reverse.
Think about it!!!
RE: Who lives near a football stadium?
Our Son and his family used to live about 9 miles north of the University of Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor till about 4 years ago and the traffic jams for home games was do unreal all day long. We've been to games there and know enough to continue leisure tailgating for at least 3-4 hours after the game is over rather than spend all that time in the "parking lots" which the day before were called "roads". The normal crowd is approx 110,000 paid so you know there's several thousand more actually in there. The stadium isn't called "The Big House" for any other reason and it's now been under construction all year and 3 more years to make it even bigger. 3 stories high from existing added on both sides. Is there no end to it? Maybe a helicopter would be a better way to get around!
